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When NPCs become detrimental to PVP

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Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46432	Posted - 2016.12.30 17:41:15 - [1] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: Sounds nice. If you get your standings up hug your box buddies like a miner escort fleet and follow them around. I hear they heal you too if your a friendly. And if anyone hostile to them warps in they will protect you. Don't hunt miners in belts if you have bad miner standings :) This is not about hurting miners. Lots of lowsec pirates are in NPC Corps and asteroid belts are common places to meet for PvP. Top belt for example has been a traditional warp to point for a 1v1 and belts in general provide a lot of active ships for PvP. The new AI is great; and particularly in highsec, but I agree with Remiel that this has a potential to significantly impact the outcome of an engagement between players because the new NPCs are not so easily avoided and have much more substantial fleets. There's no easy way ahead of an engagement to know the standings good or bad, of a player to an NPC mining Corp. you can know yours, but not other people in system. So this is s situation that isn't really all that predictable and if it becomes an issue, serves to reduce the areas solo pvpers can roam. In that regard, Remiel's highlighting of it in this thread is a good thing. Hopefully CCP consider the comments as they continue to develop the new AI. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 18:15:30 - [2] - Quote Veronica Static wrote: You find another target. Don't be lazy and it won't be a problem. This isn't an issue of laziness. The solution of 'find another target' isn't always that simple. Roaming lowsec solo or even in a smal gang of 2-3 players can result in a low rate of engagements. Sometimes less than 1 fight per hour depending on timezone. Sometimes you can roam for 2-3 hours and only come across FW plexers that don't want to fight and who warp off before an engagement (which is perfectly fine). There's nothing that should be protected about solo pvpers at all; and at the same time, these recent changes have the potential to impact a form of pvp that many people just getting into pvp fall into (solo) and/or people who continue to enjoy the challenge of solo pvp. In that respect, it's worth looking at. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 18:28:30 - [3] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: In Curse I had npcs shoot at me in this same way 2 days ago, guess the guy we were chasing had positive standings to salvation angels. As there was 5 of us and 1 of him, him deliberately warping into a belt where salvation angels were mining in oder to trigger the response fleet to help him was a brilliant move.. Yeah, this is the flip side (and mentioned back on page 1) where leaving the current mechanic as it is, makes sense. It will be interesting to see if players with good standings to NPC use it that way deliberately. My overall feeling is this mechanic won't be too much of a problem, because players looking to pvp, especially in lowsec, are unlikely to have good standings with the NPC Mining Corps. Nullsec maybe a bit different, but only in NPC null as there aren't many sov systems where there can even be NPC mining fleets to begin with. PvP in lowsec involves shooting everyone, so in that situation, it's not likely that too many pvpers will have high standings to many NPC Corps, simply because there are so many NPC Corp players that get shot at. Everyone's standings are destroyed anyway. So I don't have a belief this will affect too much pvp (only time will tell). Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 18:53:02 - [4] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: ...does it always seem to me that the only people who cannot have consequences are those that do ganking and PvP, seriously..., it gets a bit tiring to see this. PvPers don't have consequences for their choices? In lowsec? Maybe your perspective is a bit warped by your hatred of all things gank. Consequences are great and very much exist in lowsec pvp (and NPC nullsec pvp) where this thread is about. But overall, if a particular discussion is found tiring, just skip it. It's not compulsory for anyone to take part in discussions here. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 19:19:45 - [5] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: ... but then again you will just belch at me oh you want total safety, ... I'm happy with less safety. No problem with managing risk at all. Your claim that pvpers want no consequences is still just wrong. Consequences are fine and in my experience and interactions, the vast majority of pvpers in this game understand the choice/consequence aspect of the game. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 19:29:10 - [6] - Quote Dungheap wrote: i looked up one of op's DCM kills , and it seems it was a ratting condor , and guristas were also on the kill mail Why does a player being in DCM matter here? That's not really relevant to the thread. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46433	Posted - 2016.12.30 19:41:22 - [7] - Quote ACESsigepps wrote: Fix standings... having a horrible standing with a NPC mining corp is truely sad. Maybe you didn't read Remiel's OP: And before you say, "but Rem, the actual solution is to fix your standings and stop killing players in NPC corps." To the first, I say, I'm working on it. Been running lvl 1 missions out of DCM in Hogimo to do just that. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46440	Posted - 2016.12.31 06:26:44 - [8] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: Interesting. So, being that I have the mad faction with DCM, I could theoretically find one of their mining fleets and use that belt for suspect baiting... and once someone bites have my alt trigger the combat fleet's response? I then would get a friendly NPC fleet to provide me with free logi? Yes, that's correct. If you build up standings and find a belt with the relevant NPC Corp mining fleet, since the latest release, the response fleet will assist you with logistic support. What I'm not sure about is if they will assist you if you are suspect baiting, since anyone engaging you would be doing so completely legally. So it might only work that way if someone aggresses illegally (I'd need to test on SiSi to answer with certainty). Either way, that's good emergent gameplay. I can't see it being used much, but I kind of hope it is. That sort of positive use of the mechanic is a good thing, as sucky as it would be for someone like me that can't be bothered with standings. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46472	Posted - 2017.01.01 02:45:38 - [9] - Quote Railyn Quisqueya wrote: No, it isn't. You'd like it to be a strawman. But it isn't. NPC attacking miners in belts is indeed not very player driven. The difference here is that this change doesn't benefit you personally, so it must obviously be a strawman. You're attempting to draw the line at A.I. level when the design "flaw" as you present it in your OP applies to both the same. I'd prefer the opposite. Beef up all rats. Make them all the new AI and after any player attacks them, have a response fleet. That will draw out some tears. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46473	Posted - 2017.01.01 02:56:00 - [10] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: The problem is that getting to -5 occurred by virtue of attacking players in that NPC corp, not attacking the corp itself. Including, even if that is just defending yourself. If a player in DCM attacks you and you win the fight, even just pretecting yourself, you still lose standings to DCM, impacting the way NPCs that you have no interest in, respond later on. Even worse if you not only win the fight but also pod him, even though he was the aggressor. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46482	Posted - 2017.01.02 00:01:15 - [11] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Please read how the thread, and the conversation around it, has actually developed before diving in halfway through with no context. I did. If you've read it and came to the conclusion this is about PvPers want to attack PvEers, then that's unfortunate. That's not the point at all. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46487	Posted - 2017.01.02 02:29:15 - [12] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Please read how the thread, and the conversation around it, has actually developed before diving in halfway through with no context. I did. If you've read it and came to the conclusion this is about PvPers want to attack PvEers, then that's unfortunate. That's not the point at all. Right. Gaslighting and telling lies is what the (forum) PVPers are all about. Already I'm getting my words twisted. I'm not really sure what lies, gaslighting or other stuff most of that is on about. I don't really care about the forum pvp, just good discussion. It wasn't my intention to twist your words by any means, which is why my reply began 'If you've read it and came to the conclusion..." Not an absolute, it just seemed to me that based on this "...sides with the concept of pushing PVP on PVe players against their will is a little perturbed about PVe getting pushed on PVPers against their will..." that it's what you thought the thread was about, when it isn't. But no sweat. If it isn't what you thought, then my mistake. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46487	Posted - 2017.01.02 04:35:19 - [13] - Quote sero Hita wrote: Why not more NPC corps? Hopefully if this stays, the belt pirates will help people with high npc pirate faction standings then to balance it out. Based on the original announcement of SiSi testing, this seems to be the intent (see the note towards the bottom of the post): Note: Current Mining Operations are, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar. There are three mining corporations running operations from each of these all over the universe. Pirate operations will be coming soon. That could eventually mean that current miners and anyone that does PvE will be affected way more than most pvpers by this, since their standings are normally trashed to pirate corporations as a result of killing rats; and anyone with good standings to those pirate corporations could attack people in belts and potentially receive NPC logistics support when doing so.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46493	Posted - 2017.01.02 18:18:17 - [14] - Quote Well this thread went to ****. Not a surprise I guess.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46495	Posted - 2017.01.02 19:34:17 - [15] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Do you disagree with the virtual NPC environment of EVE reacting dynamically and interactively to player behavior? This is a stupid question. The old NPC AI already does this. The new AI does it differently. It's possible to say yes, but still have a totally opposing view about what that 'yes' means.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46495	Posted - 2017.01.03 00:08:12 - [16] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: ..., but the source of the problem in this thread is not real PVP from real PVPers, just griefers hiding behind the concept. And of course anything that might deny them a gank or bring on a consequence is bad and unfair. Of course the sand in the sandbox - or to be more precise, their litterbox - needs to be dead and boring. It's all about them. All the trappings of toxic people in a poorly managed player community are afoot. You will never get any agreement with them on these forums because the grief does not stop in space with these people... The concept of 'real pvp' becomes subjective as soon as the straight 'player versus player' meaning is put aside, but even assuming it doesn't include a narrow group of players that you don't personally like, there is no problem in the thread. It's a discussion and sensible discussion is fine, no matter what the view or who puts it. But it's posts like this that just inflame the debate as there are several examples of people posting in this thread with views counter to Salvas that have never ganked, are not personally interested in ganking and have no problem with consequences in pvp.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46506	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:01:22 - [17] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently). Where is this coming from? Pirate corporations, yes; but where has CCP indicated any other Corps?
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46506	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:03:58 - [18] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently). Where is this coming from? Pirate corporations, yes; but where has CCP indicated any other Corps? There is a post with a link about it buried somewhere in this thread. No there isn't.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46506	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:07:30 - [19] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently). Where is this coming from? Pirate corporations, yes; but where has CCP indicated any other Corps? There is a post with a link about it buried somewhere in this thread. No there isn't. Yes. there is. I am looking at it right now. Quote it and link it where it says anything about additional NPC Corps, aside from pirate Corps
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46506	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:11:35 - [20] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Quote it and link it where it says anything about additional NPC Corps, aside from pirate Corps Im not going to do your homework for you. Look through the thread. or Send me 500mil and I will send you the post reference in this thread. I posted the original link back on page 6. I know exactly what it says and you are wrong. There is no link in this thread discussing other NPC Corps aside from pirate Corps. Even full of bullshit you can't just correct yourself and admit you are wrong.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46506	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:29:25 - [21] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: You are wrong. Yeah sure. This is just stupid. You can't link it, because it doesn't exist, otherwise instead of diverting and avoiding the evidence, you'd just provide it and correct me. I'm looking at the linked EVE Dev post right now. You are wrong. Either do your own homework, or pay me to provide it for you. I have looked at all the links provided in this thread and you are full of bullshit right now. Nope. Also, up yours for the attitude. If you had not been such a **** about this I would have already provided it to you, gratis. Either pay me, or do your own due diligence. I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada. Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46507	Posted - 2017.01.03 17:39:20 - [22] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada. Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from. As I said, I have the linked EVE Dev post from this thread which states the number of NPC Corps right infront of me. I dont care whether you believe me or not. You can either pay me, or look harder. Id have given it to you for free had you not been such an insufferable ** about it. You wouldn't have given it because you can't. Plain and simple. I only pushed because when I asked very simple you just diverted and went almost straight to pay you or do my own homewirk. So since your fictional link doesn't exist and you have no evidence to support what you are claiming, I'll just go to Larrikin and ask him in order to get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak. I dont really care one way or the other, I just like to know the facts so I can correctly answer other people in the future. My original request back on the previous page was a genuine question because I thought that perhaps I missed something. But I didn't miss it. I've double checked all the links already; and unfortunately you are full of ** but have dug your heels in about it.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46507	Posted - 2017.01.03 18:09:10 - [23] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Goddamit, Tykari.... Anyways, see Scipio? I wasnt lying or wrong. You are wrong. There is no evidence to support your claim that it will be extended to other NPC Corps, aside from pirate corporations, which are already also partly implemented on SiSi now. I provided that link originally, back on page 6, so I am very familiar with it. But I'll see what Larrikin has to say anyway because I'd rather be in a position to be correct and helpful to others that ask the same thing in future, rather than make up stuff that isn't supported by anything CCP has said. CCP have said they have bigger plans in relation to the new AI, including NPCs manufacturing ships in their own ship yards, but we have no additional details on who that will apply to or what other plans they have. They certainly haven't stated that mining fleets will be extended to include other empire based NPC Corps.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46507	Posted - 2017.01.03 18:26:07 - [24] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: 12 NPC corps + Pirates Yes. Those 12 are implemented already. This claim: Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently). Has nothing to support the first half of it. When asked simply where that was coming from, because I can totally miss things, you continued to claim there is evidence to support it and you were directly looking at it. You weren't.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46507	Posted - 2017.01.03 18:41:18 - [25] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: I was responding to a concern by another poster that there was only 1 to which this applies. I told THEM there are more in the pipeline. You responded to a concern that of the current 12, only 1 is a Corporation that a standings hit occurs for killing capsuleers. However, at this point I have devoted far to much time to this and I now have the answer I can use and provide evidence to support when asked in future.
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46507	Posted - 2017.01.03 18:56:24 - [26] - Quote Railyn Quisqueya wrote: Heh, so it would seem at least 12 NPC corps are being upgraded. It should make PVE and PVP a bit more interesting. I'm in. There are already more than 12 (12 on TQ and additional pirate corporations on SiSi). They are: Amarr (all on TQ): Ducia Foundry Joint Harvesting HZO Refinery Caldari (all on TQ): Deep Core Mining Inc. (also a player NPC Corp) Poksu Mineral Group Minedrill Gallente (all on TQ): Astral Mining Inc. Material Acquisition Allotek Industries Minmatar (all on TQ): Minmatar Mining Corporation Vherokior Tribe Thukker Mix Pirate Corporations (currently on SiSi only): Guristas (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6695174#post6695174) Blood Raiders (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6699404#post6699404) Sansha (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6701607#post6701607) Angel Cartel (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6701607#post6702695) Not yet implemented, but confirmed there are plans: Rogue Drone (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6703402#post6703402) I would suspect some other pirate corporations coming, but we don't have the details yet. To find them (to either attack them, or to mine alongside ones you have high standings with so they will support you), look in and adjacent (2-3 jumps) to systems those Corporations have stations. There are none of these currently in wormhole space. It's limited at this point to highsec, lowsec and nullsec. CCP have said this is because the NPCs can't currently probe or use wormholes, whereas they can warp to static asteroid belts and can use gates. CCP is hoping to expand the AI to be able to probe at some point in the future (but we have no details).
Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46510	Posted - 2017.01.03 20:23:08 - [27] - Quote Torin Corax wrote: I do feel I should be allowed to defend myself against those members of DMC [DCM] who initiate combat against me without a standing loss though...or at the very least, cause those players themselves to lose standing against their own (non-aggresive) NPC corp for acting like pirates while flying under the flag of DMC [DCM]. They are flying false colours after all, and that is something that is traditionally frowned upon by pretty much every nation. Yeah, I agree with that first suggestion. If you agress a player in DCM legally (eg. they attack you and go suspect, so you defend yourself against them; or they are suspect/criminal and you agress them) and win, you shouldn't lose standings against their corporation for defending yourself, or for engaging someone that is already suspect/criminal. That one change would eliminate my only issue with the current development roadmap in relation to the new NPC AI.

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